#26 why would someone read an Asian talking about hummus?
September 2020. An interview with Yi Jun Loh on Malaysian food writing, defining Malaysian cuisine for non-Malaysians, and the finances of being a food writer.
Dear readers old and new, welcome to my newsletter! If you’re new here, I’m Flory Leow, and this newsletter is usually sent on a monthly basis, maybe more going forward. It’s like a repository for a selection of interesting things on my mind––you might find an essay about papier-mache, my beloved road bike Sardine, or like today, an interview––a list of reading recommendations from across the Internet, and a fun Easter egg or two.
Read the archives here; if my writing brightens up your day or makes you think, you should share this indiscriminately with lots of people. Especially people who might want to hire someone to write things!
Some of you know that I used to be a tour guide in The Before Times, among other jobs. That’s on hold for a while as I dabble (flounder) my way through new types of work. As exhausting as some days could be, tour guiding made me better at asking people questions and listening to them talk (a very useful skill when you spend 12+ hours a day with your clients for 2–6 consecutive days). Turns out that I enjoy interviewing people!
Yi Jun Loh is a Malaysian food writer, recipe developer, Saveur-nominated food blogger, and podcaster. His podcast ‘Take A Bao’ features food stories across Asia with a focus on culture and community, and was recently featured in a Guardian roundup of food podcasts. His articles and recipes have appeared on Taste, Food52, and Saveur, among others.
Like Yi Jun, I am a Malaysian writer who writes primarily for non-Malaysian publications (he is based in Malaysia, and I am based in Japan). The financial benefits of doing so are obvious––consider rate disparities between the Global North and Global South––but the centers of English-language food media also skew heavily towards media in Western nations, even on the internet. It was from this perspective and a desire to interrogate our relationship with food media that I contacted Yi Jun for a conversation.
Here we discuss the nascent Malaysian food writing scene, the problems of defining Malaysian cuisine for non-Malaysian audiences, and where the oft-discussed notion of culinary appropriation might sit in a Malaysian context.
This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.
How do you explain your work to people in Malaysia who don’t know what you do?
In Malaysia, people think of food writers as food reviewers, who go around eating and writing about how good the food tastes, and where you get the best version of certain dishes. In a Malaysian context, when I say I’m a food writer, it often needs more context. I explain that I don’t do food reviews. I write about food culture, history, origins of dishes, a bit of social anthropology. Although I didn’t do that at uni, that is what I do.
What is the reception to that like within KL?
It’s often seen like, “that’s so cool,” because they don’t know anyone else doing anything like that. Food writers who don’t do reviews, who write about culture or how food touches people rather than how it tastes in your mouth––that kind of food writing isn’t done as much in Malaysia, and the group of people doing it is very small. When I meet people who do, it’s almost like, it’s another one of us! I feel like so many people who are doing these things are all very siloed, without much interaction with others who are doing similar things to them. In the past month I’ve met new people doing cool things within the food scene, but not specifically to do with restaurant or dining.
Why do you think it’s so siloed?
There’s not much demand for it. Food is the sort of subject that’s not as widely read as say, probably, in the US, UK, maybe even Singapore. There’s not much demand for that sort of content or education. And the supply––there’s not many initiatives, and there’s not many large bodies trying to boost this micro-industry.
How much of this do you reckon has to do with language?
Malay and Mandarin are still more widely spoken in Malaysia. In that way, English language media, especially English-language food media, isn’t read or experienced all that much by Malaysians. But English is still very important when it comes to reaching an international audience and talking about food on a world stage. I don’t think Malaysia’s food writing in Mandarin is particularly strong either. In Malaysia, in a Malaysian context, I think our Mandarin food media is at about the same level as English-speaking food media.
That’s fascinating, because my impression was that Chinese-language journalism in Malaysia was always much richer, with many ties to Taiwan.
I think that is the case when it comes to news and current affairs.
What kind of initiatives are there in the English-language Malaysian food scene at the moment?
I wouldn’t say they’re food-writing initiatives, just food-related. In terms of writing, there’s Bettina Chua Abdullah who runs a bookstore in Penang, and runs the Fay Khoo Award, which is specifically for food writing and is a very rare initiative. There’s Periuk.my, which you sent me and which is in its very early stages, trying to make a collective resource for lost or traditional recipes.
In Singapore last month, Christopher Tan’s The Way of Kueh won Book of the Year. It’s a great book. It’s pretty astounding that a food book won out of all the nonfiction books. I think the government gave him a grant to write and research kueh, and log this hidden or soon-to-be lost heritage of Singapore. It’s a great initiative by Singapore. But in Malaysia, you hardly ever have things like that. It says something that I know more about these grants in Singapore over my home country.
I know what you mean. It’s like how we often know so much more about what’s going on in America than in Malaysia. Do you think that’s to do with publicity, the language in which it’s disseminated, how US-centric food media is…
I think it’s a combination of all those things. We talked about language, and the level of literacy––or at least interest in it. The US has a strong food writing scene; that hasn’t really trickled down to Malaysia. One of the best things about the US is that they get so much publicity. It doesn’t have to be deep cultural insights or cultural shows about your food. It can be really superficial, very lifestyle. Casual shows, too. The US has a lot of those shows. That’s why there are also people interested in food as a whole, and all the background to it.
The same can be said for what you see happening in Singapore and Thailand, at least in Bangkok. With Michelin coming in, there’s more interest in the food culture for those cities. With that interest comes more––and it has to be said––international interest as well. With that interest comes more projects, more food projects, more food shows, more food writing, and it all trickles down.
Generally more money, right.
Exactly. We haven’t seen much of that going on in Malaysia. I’m not sure about the inner workings of Michelin but I’m sure there’s a lot of money in that, to invite all these Michelin reviewers to come to your city. Our spending on food and food tourism, if you want to call it that, isn’t really seen as a priority.
I don’t know how effective the Malaysian Tourism Board is, but it always feels like they could be doing so much more––what are they doing with all that money?
I heard a really interesting narrative about this. A few people have told me that when it comes to Malaysian food, even as Malaysians, we kind of can’t explain what our cuisine actually is.
And that’s both a strength and a weakness, isn’t it?
Yeah. Is it Malay, Chinese, Indian? For tourists, when you’re trying to explain a cuisine to them, you need something you can latch on to, something memorable. If you tell people, our cuisine is a mix of Chinese, Indian, and Malay––it’s like, so, you don’t have your own identity? We’re proud that we’re a combination of all those things. But for them, Chinese, Indian, Malay foods are already foreign concepts. So if you say you’re a combination of all these ‘foreign’ concepts, it gets really confusing, and it’s really hard for people who don’t know Malaysian food to understand it.
It’s a marketing challenge––branding and the lack thereof, right?
Which Singapore and Thailand have done really well with. With Thailand, their food is really disparate, but they focused on pushing royal Thai cuisine, Pad Thai, curries. If you travel there, there are so many different dishes that we don’t really know anything about. You have to go there to even have those dishes. To the rest of the world, Thailand has said, “oh, this is our food, this is an entry point.” Like five dishes, I don’t know, Pad Thai, Panang curry, tom yam… these are the things that are “very Thai.” But that’s just the surface level of Thailand. For Malaysia, we don’t even really have that. Maybe nasi lemak.
So we haven’t even begun the process of branding what our ‘surface foods’ are. Do you think, in part, this points to a failure of government?
It’s definitely helpful if the government, the Tourism Board, and other large bodies come in to help push Malaysia’s food industry forward. But at the same time, I feel it’s a collective thing. I’m in the food industry and I am part of it, so I am part of the problem as well. If the government pushes for stuff but people or private organisations aren’t interested, it’s not going to happen, and vice versa. So it’s a collective effort to raise the standard. There are more and more conversations about how Malaysia is falling behind, and we’ve been hearing that for 8 years now.
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Photo of kimchi carbonara by Yi Jun.
I’m interested in hearing about your experiences working with North American media as a Malaysia-based Malaysian food writer. Did you ever feel pigeonholed into specific things?
My experience writing for food media outlets has been pretty good, especially with Food52. I adore them. I remember one of my first pitches about hummus. When I did pitch, they were like, why would someone read an Asian talking about hummus? This was back in 2018. But there wasn’t an angle to it. For some of the places I’ve written for, it’s not that they don’t allow Asians to talk about non-Asian subjects, but in my experience, it’s to do with the angle and the story.
So my first article for Food52 was about pineapple hamantaschens, a Jewish cookie normally filled with nuts. I riffed on pineapple tarts which you have for Chinese New Year. One of the comments was like, this is not hamantaschen, how dare you put pineapples in hamantaschens! But I had fun with it. I learned it from a Jewish blogger, and I wanted to try it. So I made it my own with the pineapple jam, and thought it would go well together.
At present there’s so much backlash against white people taking Asian flavours and putting that in stuff right now. On your blog, I enjoy how you are quite free with taking different recipes and putting your own spin on them––not all attempts at fusion are equal, right, and they don’t always turn out well.
It’s a tricky topic. I would agree with you in saying that, if I was a white writer, some people might say something about the kind of recipes I do, like, “how dare you take some Asian ingredients and just throw it into a Western dish.” To be honest, that’s what I’m doing as well. Taking a Western technique or product and making it Asian.
We see this so much in Malaysia and Singapore, and it’s so normal for us to do it. Half the time it’s fucking delicious––it’s not always successful, but that’s the nature of cooking.
I always bill it as, I’m doing this for fun and culinary curiosity. I’m not saying that, for example, when you put kimchi in carbonara, it’s the best or better than original carbonara. Food is very personal, and to me, it makes cooking and eating really fun. Quite a few people have done kimchi carbonara. I did my own and tried a few variations, made it for a friend’s housewarming and everybody loved it. I find so much interest in combining unexpected flavours and ingredients. That’s where I get the most joy in cooking. And it’s important to give credit where credit’s due. I’m not saying it’s a legit carbonara, more like a cheeky take on carbonara. There’s beauty and joy in combining different ingredients and food cultures.
I would wholeheartedly agree with that. There was a recent mooncake incident on Bake From Scratch, involving a white woman who made mooncakes without the egg yolks and replaced the filling with chocolate and almonds. And there was so much anger over, for example, the mooncake moulds being purchased off Amazon, or the supposed point of mooncakes being to support local Chinese bakeries.
I feel that everyone’s yardstick is different. What is ideal for someone is not ideal for everyone. So for the people in the mooncake incident, for them that is not cool. For you and me, we’re like, sure, I would put chocolate in a mooncake and try it out for fun. And so many bakeries in Malaysia will do flavours like durian or ice cream. It might not work every time; not all fusion food is good. Some of it tastes horrible, but it’s fun lah, and it’s interesting. I am surprised to see how some people can take offence to that. But it’s a very fine line. Like racial politics, it gets really murky––everyone has different definitions of what is acceptable and what isn’t.
(Side note: here are Oreo mooncakes and durian milk chocolate and just, why)
Right now it’s changing, but internationally, for example, French food is often held in higher regard than Chinese food. But there are so many things happening in Chinese cuisine that just didn’t get as much attention. I’m sure there is a lot of documentation in Mandarin, but not much in English. It becomes a tussle for the cuisines that ranked “below.” It’s not that you can’t play around, but for the cuisines ranked “below” it becomes tricky. People can do fusion with all kinds of hamburgers but they don’t get flack for it, and that’s because they rank “higher” in this hierarchy of food. But if you get creative with something else, it’s like, are you just doing it for the sake of money, or are you genuinely interested in learning more about it, and this is your fun take? The lines get blurred and the consequences are heavier.
Do you find this to be the case in Malaysia? I cannot think of a single food-related appropriation conversation so far.
All our outrage has been largely viral––Malaysia versus another country or big corporation, like #RendangGate. But we seem to be united within Malaysia. Perhaps it’s because we take pride in our food as being so rojak (mixed), and as Malaysians, at least internally, we are more ok with mixing whatever. People are okay with it, and that could be our upbringing too. To be honest, whenever this topic comes up, I’m not sure where I stand.
The thing about online media is that it’s so US-centric. The sheer power, the nature of that English-language discourse––it’s so flooded with American stuff. I don’t know that a more local discourse has even had the chance to really develop on its own because it’s so coloured by racial readings from the US. Do you think Malaysian food media will ever see these sorts of conversations?
It’s just a matter of time, I suppose. Maybe in 50 years. But I still feel we have a long way to go even when compared to our neighbours, like Singapore or Thailand. We are so behind. With food culture maturing, I think at some point we’ll definitely have those conversations.
What do you think Malaysian food media needs most right now?
I think this is a volume thing. We need more people––more people creating, more food creators beyond just eating shows or reviews. But we also need volume in terms of readers. The international factor plays a big role. Once there is a spotlight on Malaysia, it’s much easier to justify it to people and to put money, time, and effort into it.
Miso mushroom pasta by Yi Jun.
Because as you and I know, being a food writer is not the best paid profession around.
Yeah. It’s about exposure. When Malaysia gets more exposure in the international food scene, that’s when we’ll grow.
How do you navigate the finances of being a food writer, and surviving in Malaysia on that kind of money?
I’m really fortunate because I’m writing for US publications. That has helped and made my career more sustainable. If I was writing just for Malaysian food media, the kind of articles I write would be very different. It wouldn’t be what I want to do. For example, they’re mostly websites that siphon content from other news sites, reword them, and make it more snappy. That’s not the writer’s fault, but that is what publications want to see. That’s what they pay for at a rate which is very, very low. So it doesn’t make financial sense to spend days researching and deep-diving into a subject. It’s the same across many industries.
If you want it to be food writing in Malaysia to be sustainable, it’s more about quick, easy-to-churn-out articles. But luckily, I’ve not had to resort to that because I write and pitch to some US publications. Over the two or three years I’ve slowly built up relationships with them, and sort of been able to ask for higher rates with more experience. They know the quality of what I produce, so they’re also more willing to pay.
Speaking of rates and clients, I recall that you take on other forms of work that’s not just visible food writing on the internet.
Yes, around the beginning of this year, I started doing some recipe development projects. A friend referred me to this one. Nestle contacted me, and that was just really cool. This was coming up with ice cream flavour combinations. Halfway in, the event got cancelled because of COVID. But essentially I was developing recipes for some new items. I wouldn’t say I’m an expert, but as long as I’m interested in the job and the kind of deliverables, I’m game.
How would you say this stacks up against writing, in terms of payment?
It was for a big corporation, so it was pretty decent pay. More so than for the US writing. The rates for a 500–700 word article with recipes are like USD150–200. But with Nestle, for a week’s worth of work, maybe it’s about MYR5000–6000. So that’s pretty good. I set the rate, and again, I wish this was taught in school––how to negotiate rates, how to manage your finances and stuff.
I had no idea what the rates were for this sort of job. I had a good benchmark from food writing in the US, so I used that. So for example, like a recipe or writing––it takes me maybe one and a half, two days, maybe a bit more. So then my rate is USD100 a day, and then I prorate that across how long it takes me for the project. I gave that rate, but because it was a corporation I added another 20–30%. That was just roughly mathsing my way through it, throwing out a number and seeing how they respond.
So with negotiation, is that something you’ve had to learn to do over the years through trial and error?
It was very much trial and error. I watched a YouTuber, who had some pretty good advice. Many Malaysians––or maybe conservative Asians––are like, we don’t want to talk about money. We don’t want to mention the rate, because then it seems like we’re in it for the money. But if you don’t mention the rate... well, you need to make your job worthwhile. If you let them set the rate, you have less leeway to negotiate. It flipped my whole understanding of how to negotiate. My initial thought process was, I don’t know the market rates so I will wait for them to answer. But now, I want to be able to set the rate, in a way that is fair to both me and my client. So I take both sides into consideration. This is the rate I’m willing to do it at, and I have a range to which I’m willing to negotiate. If they go below, or way below the rate, I’m like, sorry, I can’t do that. I had to learn it’s better to just say no when someone is really undercutting you, rather than saying okay to it. In future, they know that’s your rate and it will be really hard to climb up from that, and that might snowball into worse dealings with your other clients as well. They’re like, I found out through someone else your rate is this, why are you charging me this exorbitant amount?
Do you find there’s a difference in negotiating rates between Malaysian clients and American clients?
To be fair, I haven’t had much experience negotiating rates. The successful ones have been with larger corporations. We agreed on the rate pretty easily because they have more spending power. But I’ve been asked once or twice to do food photography for a smaller restaurant. The rate I gave was too high for them. I didn’t just say no, but I said, it doesn’t make sense for me to pursue this, but if you can cut down the deliverables… so you still try to make something work, but at a rate that now works for both you and them. I’ve had to reject people, which I think is pretty privileged––to be able to do that and not say yes to every little bit that comes your way. But I think the US is more open to talking about money.
So recently I did a few videos on Food52. Initially, they paid me USD150, and I sent an email to them being like, you know, a polite Asian. I was like, I’m not sure if this is okay with you, if you have any room in your budget to spare, could you increase my rate a bit, it will be a great help, just being really soft with them. And the person was like, oh yeah, we’ll bump it up to USD250. And I was like, oh, it’s more than what I asked for. So with the US, it is easier to broach the topic of money.
I wish we had been taught all this at school. You’re not taught to advocate for yourself in school at all––you’re taught to pass your exams, but when it comes to important stuff like this...
We really don’t have finance or personal finance courses in school. I would have taken this over Civic Studies. Not that that isn’t an important subject, but the quality of the lessons was just not good.
How would you advise other aspiring food writers in the local food writing scene who want to get started?
I wish I could say, you know, just start and pitch to publications but it’s a lot more complicated than that. If you pitch a Malaysian publication, there isn’t (usually) a focus on quality. It’s quantity. Sometimes you’re paid by the word, and that is the worst. I’ve done it before and I’m just tempted to be super waffly and fluffy just to say a bit more, but it makes for a terrible read. I read some of the stuff I wrote and think, I could have made these three sentences into one. It’s the kind of writing you see on many Malaysian portals.
But for starters, I would say, try and stick to quality writing. Freelancing as a food writer is really difficult. It is a slow process. If you’re writing for a local publication, it’s not a particularly sustainable job or career unless you’re tied to a particular network. Read plenty, and if you see any publications, even those outside of Malaysia like Singapore, or Asian-focused ones––there are quite a few out there, including travel magazines that touch on food––just, as they say, shoot your shot.
You started out with your blog, and I think you’ve managed in part to grow your current readership through that.
Running a blog is not the easiest thing. There’s no money in running a blog unless you put in tons of advertising, which will make for a terrible reading experience. I played around with Google Ads for a bit. There is nothing there. I always had ad blockers on most of these sites, so I thought no one was using ads, and I shouldn’t do ads. Then three months ago I turned it on, and was like, oh shit, everyone’s doing it. I thought there were blank spaces on the sidebars, but they were ads that were just blocked out from my view. But even if you do ads, it’s not sustainable. With the volume I get––maybe 1000 views a day––if translated to clicks I get maybe like, USD5 a month or something.
I’m interested in efforts to promote food writing, like the Fay Khoo Award. As you said, it’s about beginning with reading, but the only other way I see is to do this on the side as a hobby, and maybe grow it into something more from there.
I think it has to start on the side. If you dive into this full-on, locally, I’m not sure Malaysia is ready for that. I’m not sure there’s a demand for it. I know a few people have tried, but it’s hard to sustain. I would love to paint a nice blue-sky picture of Malaysia’s food writing scene, but it’s not looking great.
RECENT WRITING + THINGS I’VE BEEN UP TO
Welcome to Aomori, the cassis capital of Japan: I spent a little time in northern Japan last month interviewing a farmer and a gelato maker about blackcurrants. The story of how Hayashi-san and Chiba-san met is truly hilarious and heartwarming and didn’t make it to print, but it’s a fabulous story that should be told––maybe for a future newsletter, or any other outlet that might want to take it.
From salaryman to sanga-slinger: Kohsuke Yamaoka knows the secret to a great sandwich: Chan makes some of my favourite sandwiches in Tokyo, for real. I recently tried a limited-edition breakfast tortilla that made me want to eat it all over again as soon as the last bite was gone.
'The Cat and the City' author Nick Bradley: When writing fiction, 'there's no such thing as wasted living': My first interview with an author! I knew as soon as I read his book that I wanted to try interviewing him. His debut is (largely) successful in depicting Tokyo from the inside, and we did exchange a few messages on writing ‘dialogue in Japanese but in English by someone fluent in both languages’ –– the linguistic implications of such are fascinating. A future conversation, perhaps…
This year isn’t doing anything by half measures. It is late September and it suddenly turned positively wintry today after what felt like an endless summer hellscape. Finally. It still feels like an eternal present of sorts, taking every day, every week as it comes.
Writing + Story Ideas: if you know someone interesting who should be written about, or have any story ideas/tips, please feel free to send them my way! Or, if you’re an editor looking to assign a Japan-related story, I’m open to (relevant) commissions.
Translations: I’m open to J-E translations (and sometimes do E-J, too). Some examples of things I’ve worked on recently: Tokyu Hotel brochures, book excerpts, a short story, profiles, emails. Happy to discuss projects.
New readers: thank you, thank you, thank you for signing up! A few of you have pointed out that the food guide links don’t work. This is being fixed (in all honesty it’s because of software complications) and I hope to have that out by the next newsletter. Thank you for your patience; and, if you want to check them out, all of the pieces in there can be found with a quick Google.
LONG READS, GOOD THINGS
David Graeber pushed us to imagine greater human possibilities (Guardian)
What My Sled Dogs Taught Me About Planning for the Unknown (New York Times)
The Myth of the Perfect Translation (Ploughshares)
The Carbon Footprint Sham (Mashable)
The Case for Bad Coffee (Serious Eats)
The Emily Ratajkowski Effect (Substack)